Casting of Cars in Races
Do we need to be concerned with differences in cars that are being displayed to race and cars that actually race?
This weeks races jumped out at me as a potential issue with the 360 Modena this week. The display picture is the white 360 Modena from 2010. My experience with this is that it is no where close to the Red 360 Modena from 1999.
When looking at the pictures of the actual race, I see the red one. I made my picks based on the white one and not the red one, which I know can kick some a$$ on the 50 foot tracks as it flies.
The obvious difference is the wheels that were in use 11 years before the white one. The other different is the weight. Each of my red 360 Modena's(3 of them) out weight the white one by 3+ grams.
We also see the 2010 blue Pontiac Firebird but a completley different Pontiac Firebird was run in the race, which I know wasn't from 2010 as the only other variations were Purple and Black. Because I don't have the red one, I don't know when it was made or the weight comparisons.
The Lamborghini Diablo picture is the one from 1998 versus the one that was made in 2000 that won the championship.
My point is that when some people pick these cars (including me) I am picking based on the car picture and not differences in the cars that are not known to everyone else. I could totally understand if it is a recolor from the same year. However, if they were made in sepearte years there are going to be differences. And hey, it helps us racers know which casting of that car is the one to get.
Just something to discuss as I know it really expands the types of cars out there. With my tracking of my races I even go down as far as the recolors for each year, which might be overkill but I can look at something and say my experience with this color is that it isnt fast but this color is fast.
Discussion
This is Brian's game, it's up to him.
Personnaly, though I have a trained myself to have a very Mystery Science Theater 3000 perspective of this. I was surprised when I first found out that the cars pictured were not the same exact cars that were running...and I thought about being concerned about things when I found out that it wasn't the exact actual cars that have been run before that would be run in the races run in Washington--merely the same kind of car...(same with the Texas races.)
Then I remembered...it doesn't matter. None of us pay anything for the opportunity to play this game and none of us gains anything for having played. It's silly, it's fun. And it's Brian's game...and if he's ok with it, then I'm ok with it.
"If you're wondeirng how he eats and breathes...and other science facts.
Then repeat to yourself, 'it's just a show, I should really just relax...'"
--Love Theme from Mystery Science Theater 3000
There definitely are difference between the cars. If I remember correctly, I believe Brian (never called you that before, hope you don't mind) had some new features being implemented for the 2012 update that fix this. Personally though, I don't really look much at the specific car model being run when I make my picks. I just look at the results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glU2UCy2L9M Send your cars to me and those are the ones that will be raced! See them for yourself on Youtube. Gravitywerx Mail-in
Then I remembered...it doesn't matter. None of us pay anything for the opportunity to play this game and none of us gains anything for having played. It's silly, it's fun. And it's Brian's game...and if he's ok with it, then I'm ok with it.
Couldnt agree more with that statement. Brian knows that the boys and I have supported the racing league since I think it was the 2nd season. But what do I gain? Lots of knowledge from the racing league about cars. I have then turned around and purchased them from garage sales/ebay to add them to my racing cars, the majority of the league Hall of Famers are now in my cars because of Redline. This in turn helps me and the boys dominate our league races.
Knowledge, knowledge, and knowledge and outspending the other racers= Good for Us!
Okay, here's the thing with different cars, and Jobe touched on it a bit...is that all cars will be different no matter what year/wheels they are. There are differences between year makes, 1996 vs 2011, but there are also differences between the same models within the same years. You can buy 10 cars of the same model from the same year and they'll all perform differently, that's just the way manufacturing goes, and you toss in all sorts of track variables and there you go. So in the grand scheme of things, it shouldn't matter too much.
And in my head, if you took all the variances across all cars, across all the years it was produced, it would all average out. One of the goals behind the league was to rank cars at a general level and as the league expands to more and more tracks around the country, this generalization will come in to play quite a bit. It's not about specifics of the cars...we're racing the "Lamborghini Diablo", not the "1996 Lamborghini with 5 spoke tires". Like Bryan mentioned, the only requirement I do make sure off-site hosts follow is the same build type for a car, metal/metal, etc, because I consider them two different cars at that point...that also means body style. So the Rescue Ranger with the engine on the hood is different than the Rescue Ranger without it.
I should also note that the Elo rating system used in the game is designed to help keep things as fair as possible in terms of rankings. Even as we race different-yet-same cars on different tracks, the rating will always average out to be representative of a car's overall performance.
And to be perfectly honest, which I've mentioned before in threads, the car shown in the Fantasy League photo isn't necessarily the same one rolling down the track anyway.
This is the Ferrari that is shown on the site
but this is the one actually being raced
You're all correct...there are differences between cars. Between years, within years, between wheels, between paint...but unless you're racing the *same* car, you'll never get true consistent results, and even then there's no guarantees. And I know it sounds like a cop out, but like Jim said, when you boil it down, we're here to have fun talking about cars, playing with toys and making friends. So when you play in the league, think less about what type of tires will make the car faster, and instead think more along the lines of "will the Diablo beat the Monte Carlo". Don't over-think it.
And one last thing to this over-written reply...in the update coming next year, it will be *much* easier to do research on cars across different tracks. Car histories will be tracked by track so you can see wins-per-track which should help players know how cars perform on which track. I know that doesn't help right now but it's something I'm working to make easier because I know it's something we all need.
Whew...sorry for the lengthy reply, but you all brought up good points. Hope that clears up any confusion.
...and Peter, bonus points for the MST3K reference.
Or Peter, even.
http://www.seattlecomedy.net/petergreyy.html
Of course, for all of my 'don't worry about it so much' talk--it doesn't make a ton of sense to me to give us more research tools when that research is not actually about the same car. It is only slightly helpful to learn that one version of one car beat one version of another car on a track of differing proportions...it's definitely bad science.
If I was starting the RDR from scratch, I'd buy a flight case to put the official derby car collection in...and those would be "the cars" and if there were races in other areas, the flight case would need to be mailed to them. If accidents would cause cars to need to be replaced, then they would become a new car, with new statistics and a name that indicated that they were a different version of the same car Ford-GT40(b). If the flight case got lost, then the pool of cars would begin from scratch.
But that's not how Brian's doing it...and it's definitely successful in keeping us all entertained. So, I'm fine with it. But I'm probably not going to be using any of the research tools being created very much because they aren't going to tell us what people might think they will.
Besides, research-smesearch...I usually just pick all the red cars to win.
D'oh...sorry, Peter, too many damn tabs open.
Lots of truth there...but when it comes to data of car-per-track then you'll at least know what cars perform well on which track. I think the Blue October tournament this week is good case for that as if you looked back at the last tournament that was on the 50-foot track, you had a good idea about which cars would do well....or at least *should* do well. I know I did that and it worked out for the better. It's not hard science, it's not supposed to be, it's just fun.
I agree, shipping cars around the country would be best but I feel that's both time and cost prohibitive week after week.
However, the passion coming out debating all of this has me wondering if there is room for a such a concept within the game at large. Perhaps a series of tournaments that do ship cars across the country but maybe we don't do 16 tournaments week after week...just do a slower schedule? Hmmm...
The thing that bothers me most about the league right now are the one-off game problems that crop up, like bonus points not getting awarded and cars getting entered twice. Those are the things that shouldn't happen regardless of how the cars are handled on the track. These are the things that are top priority on my list to address for the relaunch. I can get by loopholes in science but holes in the game mechanics is unacceptable. I might not have the perfect racing setup going on, but I can at least need to offer a flawless game experience, so that I promise will get better.
Peter pretty much nailed it.
When I won season 4, it was because I spent a lot of time researching each car's racing history, and meticulously comparing one cars history against another. The history I was looking at was from one car and one track only. It didn't matter what car was pictured, it just mattered that the same car was racing each time on the same track. These histories were very reliable.
Now that we're racing at various other venues and using slightly different cars, those histories just aren't as reliable. Like Peter suggested, the only way we could keep the integrity of a car's history would be to ship the 'official' cars from track to track.
Okay, I've offered my two cents on this subject. But all being said, it really is about the fun and friends that keeps me coming back.
So then the question that begs to be asked is, is expansion to other tracks worth it?
The way I see the future is returning to the same tracks again and again over the course of a year, so we'll be racing on the Texas track several times, for example. So after a little time, there will be data for the same cars on those tracks, and that data will be available.
One note too about new tracks, next year we'll be continuing our circuit tracks in Texas and Washington, but I'm also making some different spec tracks local to my house too. So the cars will be the same but the track will be different...so that's a little bit of both worlds.
Majority of races will be on my home track, no question there. I think doing one or two off-site races a season is good for a change every now and then...plus it gives me a week off, which can be healthy as well
I figured this would be coming up at some point.
I'll let Brian weigh in on this one, but I would be happy to photo/weigh the cars I run prior to the races next time if that would help. I did confirm at least that all the cars were the same body/chassis as in metal/plastic or metal/metal, plastic/metal. But yes there are definately differences between years and hell between the same casting of the same year. I have two screaming haulers. One is a total dud, the other is pretty good, so I ran the good one.