Challenges with seeding races

StarCorps Friday, 9/27/2024

So I finished the seeding for the Piston Junction Invitaitonal - and I have all the races planned out. I was going with a random seed - but I realized this was probably not the best choice, so I decided to reseed and reorganize for races 2-20. 

But I noticed that one race, due to the seeding - had both cars from the same builder in it. 

The majority of people I have asked have said its absolutely zero issue to just swap that car into a different race in the same 'area' of the seed. But one voice suggested that doing that would lead to a perception of bias and would be seen as favoritism. 

What are your thoughts? 

In this case, I am using a 1/20/40/60 seed model for just over 80 cars. Rank the cars from fastest to slowest, Then assign numbers 1-20 to the first 20. Then start over at 1 for the next 20. Repete until 80 cars are covered. 

Race 1 then has all four cars with a '1'. Race 2, the '2's and so forth. 

In this case, the prposed swap would be in the same grade - a car from the third grouping of 20. 

It just means say a 13 races in the 14 group, and a 13 races in the 14 group. 

If... that made sense, please give me your feedback. 


Discussion

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Chris_Hood 9/27/24

Not a racer, just a fan, so, grain of salt time

Invoke the Peter Principle. One, qualifying/seeding tells only half the story. Some cars can blaze down and mark a fast time unopposed yet struggle with a group. Two, that's a possibility every racer faces when multiple entries are allowed, facing off against a "teammate" in the same group. Your beginning field is 80 cars? Seems big enough by a considerable margin to allow for this kind of groupings without strife.

Let the seedings fall as they may


  • I see the logic in what you're saying. There's a part of me that feels weird about forcing a builder to eliminate one of his own cars. — StarCorps
  • Also I don't know what the Peter principle is. — StarCorps
  • "Peter Principle" Keep it simple. Indiana Diecast Racing had an entire round in his tournament he called "The Round of Death" as some groups were all from one builder AND only one car advanced. Then again. . .over 300 entries, folks sending in 8 cars like it was nothing — Chris_Hood
  • I agree with Chris — ConMan_Customs
  • I want to clarify, IDR's "Round of Death" was the THIRD round of that tournament, so there were still teams that advanced many of their cars to get to that point — Chris_Hood
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dr_dodge 9/27/24

Good afternoon Starcorp, 

thats a very good question.  

we raced a 2 car stock car team for 3 years (1:1)

and always hated when we both were in the same heat.

but, thats where we had to run.

on the other hand a "no team v team" first round does make sense, too

how do you chose the swapped cars?

but then how do you sort that if 30 of 50 cars are team mates,

that could go out the window real fast based upon entries/car count

how do other hosts sort this?

and how does everyone set their matches?

dr

I don't think there's any problem with having a racer race against themselves. It's the nature of entering 2 cars into the same tourney. I've seen Boss Championship and Rick's Diecast run racers against themselves no issue.

At the end of the day may the best car win!

What was your rationale for random seeding not being the best choice?


  • I have run 4 races so far as random - my partner litterly pointing at the cubbies where I keep the cars at random. 2 races are published. Two are still in the editing phase. I am throwing out those two run but not published races, because I noticed that with such a wide desparity of cars, the races had a 25-50 percent DNF rate as cars that barely made it down the track crashed out and took some of the best drivers out with them. I thought going to a speed-seeded format would help aleivate that AND structure my races easier. — StarCorps
  • Ok... thanks. Good info. Appreciate the response. I always thought that just going with them without seeding might be better but there are issues... — Stoopid_Fish_Racing
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alva1370 9/27/24

House rules, host discretion (I’m a big fan of house rules)

If I was ever racing me I'd be grateful for the increased odds of making the next round.


I use Random Wheel and let the Chips fall where they may. Even then I do believe you can alter a slot and exchange if something does not seem fair. But letting it spin and going with first round as is is just the way the cookie crumbles in oppoents positions. Just my Way of seeding.


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redlinederby 9/28/24
Site manager

I don't see any reason why you can't do a first pass using all random and then making adjustments. I used to do that all the time for races. Just don't televise all the seeding and what not and no one will no the difference anyway. Everyone trusts you're not out to screw anyone...there's no point in that.

You know what will be a good match-up and what's more fair than not. Let the machine do the up front work and then just edit and adjust...no biggie, no foul. Racers and watchers all want fair & fun and the machines can't always get that done.

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