What do you think of DOUBLE elimination format?
For future mail-in races, I'm hoping to incorporate the DOUBLE elimination format to my tournaments.
We would still do the "2 runs> switching lanes> fastest time advances" race format for each matchup, but the loser is NOT eliminated on first loss. Instead, the losing cars would join a secondary bracket where they will keep racing until they get their 2nd loss (STRIKE) or until they reach the finals. Essentially, no one gets eliminated in the first round, you just get your 1st strike. This will give racers more chances to win and to keep advancing.
For this format, there would be no qualifiers as it will already be a long tournament to begin with. I will be using an app called Versus that helps me track how the tournament and its participants are moving. There would be no limit of how many racers can enter as the app lets me create a bracket with an unlimited number of participants.
This app also lets me decide the matchups myself or it can do it itself in an organized manner or randomly. It can also randomize the matchups in EVERY round, giving the tournament a wild wild west feel to it. If you think you could have made it farther in the tournament because you drew an unfavorable matchup, this format lets you battle it out with at least 2 different racers before you get eliminated. Below are pictures of how the tournament bracket would work with only 16 racers. Also attached in this post is a video example of how the format would work. The video is not perfect, but I feel it captures the concept of what I'm trying to implement for mail-in races. Comment below your thoughts. I'm interested in hearing what the racing community thinks and how it can be improved!
youtu.be/UE6sNjfWyPw?si=um9vLwaKuljZNoj4
Discussion
So the losers from the first round get put into a parralel knockout table that meets back with the original table at the final. So the first round loser gets to take another chance at a car that most likely is quicker than the car that already beat it. Seems kind of redundant. Your write up seemed interesting but when I seen the tables I think it's kinda moot as the car from the first group should walk the final. It's maybe a little unfair as well that the car that really finished 2nd gets sidestepped to the podium by a car that got beat in the first round.
I like the thinking outside the box though, the title grabbed my attention right away.
- The idea behind this format is if you build a car that lost in, let's say the first or second round but you could've definitely beaten other cars if you just matched up with them, you have a chance of squeezing the juice out of your car and maybe get a 5th place finish instead of going out early, for example. I've seen racers get bumped out because of a bad matchup that could've otherwise at least won against other even slower cars. Also, for the car that made it to the final it would have to win 4 times to get there whereas losing cars would have to race more. An advantage is still there for the faster car, I see it as being the same as qualifying 1st overall and getting the weaker matchups throughout the race. I'm also looking of some way to reward builders by giving them more track and camera time as building cars takes a lot of time and effort and seeing them go out on the first go around could discourage participation. — RT_Race_Technology
- Thank you for your input though! I appreciate any and all feedback. I lwarn how to gauge interest because of comments like this so I genuinely thank you! — RT_Race_Technology
- I appreciate the idea a lot better now you've added the extra bit about the builders getting an extra chance to see their car in action after all the time and effort building it. Makes sense. I guess as well it gives them a 2nd chance to see their car maybe get a few head to head wins even if they get knocked out early by the eventual leader. I think I was looking at it only from the pure hard racing side of it. If you run a race with those parameters you can count me in! — Chipped_Paint_Racing
- Another idea you might like to consider is to cap entrees to a number slightly lower than a full bracket. eg- 28 instead of 32. then you run the first round and 14 racers go through and you fill the last two spots with the two quickest losers. — Chipped_Paint_Racing
- I actually like that idea! It gives the tournament a round and even number for the bracket. And yes, I would have to cap the amount of cars a household can send. I think 2 cars per household is a good number — RT_Race_Technology
Maybe run a winners / losers bracket?
The winner obviously gets the win, the losers get a second chance to race. Like Group A and Group B.
- You mean like putting cars that lost in the 1st round in a separate bracket? Where would you put that threshold? — RT_Race_Technology
I believe that whatever a host wants to pull off for their track, whether for convenience or for variation, is up to them. Your idea has merit as if you thought of this type of elimination for your race, others may also be thinking about it as a possibility.
However, I am not a fan of the complete separate brackets for the losing cars, to be able to re-enter again at the Main Event Showdown. I am a fan of the Wildcard race though. Where you put the losing cars in their own elimination round and they can come in on Heat #2 (Second Round Bracket). I don't really like a pass to the final race even though it supposedly beat the other slower cars. It didn't get to feel the competition of the other faster cars who did win their heats against similar time trials.
The cream will rise, cars do have off days, but I tend to lean towards a wildcard entry for a few cars, but not a path to the end without going against supposedly faster cars that won their heats.
- A wild card event is also something I'm considering. But on this format, the leading car going into the final would have already faced previously undefeated cars, so it would definitely face some competition if it wants the pass to the final I believe — RT_Race_Technology
We run a double elimination bracket on our local Wednesday Night races and I am a fan of it. Much preferred random seeding in my opinion than qualifying for bracket seeding......the race is mostly over/determined after qualifying runs.
Dutch
- That was my line of thinking as well. Qualifiers are nice and actually resemble the format you would see at a real car track, but for diecast racing I feel we could squeeze more racing into a video. I don't think anyone would want less racing no? — RT_Race_Technology
- Agreed. I actually (usually) do not watch the qualifying videos and just tune in for the bracket race. — Dutch_Clutch_Racing
- So more racing is accomplished by doing double elimination. — Dutch_Clutch_Racing
- Exactly I usually skip qual videos as well unless I'm participating. Idk it takes away from the suspense I think — RT_Race_Technology
I'm a fan. I used double-elim brackets often when I ran races simply because it felt very underwhelming if you got bumped out after one run. Sometimes you have a stinker car, sometimes it's just bad luck (or a lane) so double-elim helped create some second chances (and some good underdog rally moments).
I never did qualifiers or anything like that, just good old fashioned, un-fancy brackets. If the people in your bracket can't easily see where/how/when/why they ended up where they did, then it's too complicated and you should simplify.
The real trick with doubles is the roster size. Bigger roster = More time investment. Just be honest with how much you can (and want) to race.
That being said, the online bracket managers like Challonge make it really easy to keep track of things and also provide a nice output you can use later. I used Challonge for most of my races and it was great.
Here's my how-to on using it: Why you want race brackets online and how to do it
I'm sure there are many apps that offer bracket management at this point (not sure which one is being shown above) but most of them should give you the basic formats to use online and print.
The only warning I'll give for any app you use to track your data is do not rely on them to be a forever archive. Copy results and export PDFs to your own PC so you have them, just in case. I've been burned before when I commit to using an online service only to have it close down a year later. Not fun.
- Yeah I have to look into how many entries I want before it gets too crowded. But I don't mind spending 2 hours filming and racing on a boring weekend lol. Also I will definitely check out your link. Did not think to archive any of the results as they would just be posted as screenshots in the results section — RT_Race_Technology
If the host wants to assume the greater burden of producing second bracket races, terrific! I have seen that Cinderella Story unfold where a first round loser fought their way back to face the main bracket finalist, made for compelling watching during the Nissan Summer Series at RTR Diecast Racing years ago
- I've seen it happen before as well it definitely adds more suspense to the race — RT_Race_Technology
I have DE tournament brackets printed out for 16 slots and 8 slots. For 16 car event youre looking at 10 Rnds with minimum of 30 races. Switching lanes puts you at 60 races. Thats with no tie-breaker 3rd race.
- Can't imagine people not liking more racing right? I certainly wouldn't mind spending a weekend filming and racing! — RT_Race_Technology
an interesting idea
especially on the drag racing, always thought the host left 1/2 the production on the table
run a whole set of races to determine (ex 32 car field) places 17-32. maybe a chaos canyon outlaws style. (winner advance thing)
I enjoy seeing different formats. Good Luck!
I like your logo, too
dr